Curse

FengShuiDove · May 23, 2009, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Two things:

1. The new skill updates in the past year or so have indeed changed the meta game, something which was desired and is now being despised once again because a lack of change. Once again, no matter what skills are changed and how they are changed, there will be a new "best" or "easiest" build to play with great success. Perfect balance, ie, allowing an 8 player team to run whatever they want and be competitive, will never happen. It's just too difficult to get this many skills that balanced. Instead, phase in new skills that are competitive with whatever current meta game exists in any given time period. Allow for diverse play without killing the old style.

2. New styles of gameplay, particularly in PvP. In a 6 man arena, team dynamics and strategy change. Sure, some of the builds will be just as effective in 4, 6, 8, 12 man teams, but others, for example, Dervish [[Wounding Strike] pressure and Assassin chains, become more effective with lower levels where a team cannot concentrate on defensive turtling and still be a legitimate offensive threat. There needs to be some shakeup not only of skills but of what types of competition exists in PvP arenas.

haggus71 · May 23, 2009, 10:57 PM // 22:57

They have a Live Team of 4 people working on it. Remember how it was when Izzy was in charge? This is worse.

lord of all tyria · May 23, 2009, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by icedwhitemocha

oh my god, are you people serious?

It is a little worrying.

Commander Kanen · May 24, 2009, 03:09 PM // 15:09

I agree, Skill update is needed and has been for a long time. Anet simply made some skills redundant. Anet are lazy with skill updates also. rather than re-work a skill they just nerf it right down to nothing "Smiter's Boon".

snaek · May 24, 2009, 03:49 PM // 15:49

we need more skill updates. however they need to be planned and thought out carefully... randomway can do just as much bad as it can do good.

imo anets balances have already been fairly random... they need to move away from this, not towards this.

Gun Pierson · May 24, 2009, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Skill updates? GW became too soft since we have Linsey (even though she seems to be hard working and full of passion for the job). Zquests, Nicholas the traveller and the cutest wallpaper evar, tonics and all the other dressing up of this game. What's next, feeding your mini so it will make cute sounds? It's time we see some more balls again.

Wasn't this game about skills and killing things with them?

Calvar Draveir · May 24, 2009, 07:47 PM // 19:47

I think some people are missing the point of Z-quests: to provide better incentive for doing missions and exploring areas again. It's also to make tomes more accesible, and add storage slots. (Equipment packs) And seriously, there's been a whole bunch of fun stuff with the update. Account-wide HoM= win.

Gun Pierson · May 24, 2009, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvar Draveir

I think some people are missing the point of Z-quests: to provide better incentive for doing missions and exploring areas again. It's also to make tomes more accesible, and add storage slots. (Equipment packs) And seriously, there's been a whole bunch of fun stuff with the update. Account-wide HoM= win.

Yes, if Anet was in the environmental business they would prolly win the Nobel prize for their recycling model.

From a developer's view it's brilliant as they don't have the manpower to come with actual content. The good news is they're looking for two extra members to strengthen the live team. It's on her wiki page. Not that we have to expect miracles, but still.

I agree the update had good stuff in it and account wide HoM was one of them, but pretty late, like with a lot of stuff. The question is do we really need more of the cute type of fun stuff or would it be better to polish some of the core gamemechanics in this game, the skills?

A11Eur0 · May 24, 2009, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

I do not want GW to have an infinite arsenal of powerful skills.

Updating the skills so that we can go from one imbalance to another? Yeah, there's a whole lot of progress being made there.

If there are 10 different team builds that are "unstoppable", that's more balanced than one team build that's "unstoppable", wouldn't you say? How about 50 "unstoppable" team builds? Are they truly unstoppable any more? That's called balance, with powerful skills. it would require PvE to be amped up by quite a bit but that would be cool too...it might stop farming as well.

kedde · May 24, 2009, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Another utterly terrible thread sees the light.

Nerf this thread to dead please.

Lonesamurai · May 24, 2009, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Skill updates? GW became too soft since we have Linsey (even though she seems to be hard working and full of passion for the job). Zquests, Nicholas the traveller and the cutest wallpaper evar, tonics and all the other dressing up of this game. What's next, feeding your mini so it will make cute sounds? It's time we see some more balls again.

Wasn't this game about skills and killing things with them?

Linsey has been around doing the job for quite sometime...

Gun Pierson · May 24, 2009, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonesamurai

Linsey has been around doing the job for quite sometime...

Yes, most of us know that, but when she worked on the campaigns and stuff it was with the whole Anet team and she realised parts of the bigger picture. Since the live team, she decides more how the picture will look like now. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of her work and that of the team, as long as things don't get too cheesy.

Fay Vert · May 24, 2009, 10:19 PM // 22:19

OP didn't suggest making lots of powerful skills/builds, he just acknowledged that was a risk and that re-evaluation was needed.

This thread needs to remain open as long as people retain closed minds.

Vanquisher · May 24, 2009, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joak

If GW had an infinite arsenal of powerful skills, it would be balanced. If every skill is good, none is bad, and in turn there can't be no good since there is no bad. And with more powerful skills the meta can't become centralized around one build, since many other skills are as good or better/worse in certain circumstances. I'd say make all skills OP in some way!

/signed

Simply awful reasoning for buffs. Does not work in practise.

Aeon221 · May 24, 2009, 11:54 PM // 23:54

The unbalanced nature of the skills in the game and the team builds that maximize this broken-ness -- in game theory terms, the presence of a few dominant strategies and many dominated ones -- reduces the strategy matrix by several orders of magnitude and therefore makes it possible for players to maintain beliefs about what other players bring to the table. In effect, it makes possible a Bayesian game, where players hold certain beliefs about their potential opponents. Those beliefs make strategy and counters possible in build terms.

In other words, if the game were perfectly balanced it would become strategically uninteresting, as the dominant strategy would be, essentially, a team build composed of bars selected on a whim*.

An example of a perfectly balanced game is Tic-Tac-Toe, wherein the end result is always a draw (unless you're playing an opponent who makes a mistake). An example of an imperfectly balanced game, in strategic terms, is chess -- white has a first mover advantage that results in an ~8% higher margin of victory, and both sides have access to many dominant and dominated strategies.

*The correct phrasing would be "at random", but the stronger assumption would require a defense that relies too heavily on specialized jargon from game theory and higher level mathematics to be acceptable in a common use situation.

Buster · May 25, 2009, 12:23 AM // 00:23

It would take them forever for a big skill shake up and honestly it isn't worth the time or the effort since priority is Guild Wars 2, well atleast we think it is.

Wish Swiftdeath · May 25, 2009, 12:34 AM // 00:34

You can't just make everything overpowered because then the game will just become a crapshoot. Games will simply depend on what skills you bring, not how you use the actual skills.

Vazze · May 25, 2009, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Big shake up is not needed, larger and more frequent skill balances are. Static skill system = dead GW.

Cab Tastic · May 25, 2009, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buster

It would take them forever for a big skill shake up and honestly it isn't worth the time or the effort since priority is Guild Wars 2, well atleast we think it is.

I disagree.
I think you could go through every skill in this game and make changes to make it useful, within a week.

Probably the majority of time is spent by anet testing the effect of this skill in house (just a guess!). I say reduce this time and send it out to us to play test.
I cannot see how this would effect the PvE side of the game to any great degree apart from giving you more options.
PvP would be thrown into some chaos briefly but given that high level PvP is dying a slow death, it could be good for it long term.

Esan · May 25, 2009, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by haggus71

They have a Live Team of 4 people working on it.

No, they have TWO people working on the game, only one of whom is a programmer. The other two members of the team are PR and marketing. Reportedly other people working on GW2 help out as and when they can.

To call this a skeleton crew would be giving it too much credit.